One You Can Buy Gifts In - One You Can Feel The Spirit In
*****Update
I am turning off comments at this point because I must again state my position in this - This is MY LDS BLOG and LDS IN NATURE, and I do not go around to Catholic Blogs debating their points of doctrine that we (as LDS Church members) do not believe in. I do appreciate the comments up to this point, and everyone has a point of view to share I understand that, but it was never my intent to start going back and forth so much over me sharing something that was simply MY OWN EXPERIENCE. Again, this being LDS in nature, and MY LDS BLOG, I can talk about the things I want, and allow the kind of content I want on it as well. God Bless Everyone who has commented on this post, I really do appreciate it.
I am talking about the difference between the way I felt when I walked into a Catholic Church (when I was in Sedona Arizona over the weekend), and how I feel inside an LDS Church. I have to admit the structure of the Romain Catholic Church built into the side of a rock in Sedona, AZ awe struck me at first. It was an amazing vision by the lady who had the idea in the first place to do it there, but thats where the amazement and awe stuck ends for me!
Here is a picture so you can get a visual of what I am talking about:
My wife and I did a “trolly tour” of Sedona, Arizona and this is one of the stops that the tour took us to. I wanted to get out and check it out because it was a way cool looking structure. My wife and I walk up the path, and walk inside. I keep walking and looking and turn around to talk to my wife and shes gone (out the door). I went ahead and followed her because I wanted to make sure everything was ok, and when I asked her she shared something with me that I wanted to share here.
I am not a hater of any faith. I served a mission in Fiji and feel I got a pretty good education on all types of faiths, and I see good in all, but that is not the point of this post. The point of this post is to share with you how I feel about the LDS (Mormon faith) and share my testimony as to the power of our Church. With all that said, please do not get offended by what I am about to say - again - I am only sharing mine, and my wifes experience here. My wife told me that she got an empty feeling when she was in the Church, and she looked over and saw a sign with gift shop hours and that really threw her off, and she wanted to run the other way. I never noticed the gift shop sign, but I could feel the empty that was in the building, and I just wanted to get out because I did not feel it was a place where the spirit would dwell.
When did this Church become so commercial? In our (LDS Faith) Church we do not profit from inside the worship places, or any of our chapels, and the feeling you get when you go inside one of ours is apparent and very different from this feeling my wife and I got upon entering this chapel.
I am very thankful for the LDS faith and the knowledge we have, and the way our Church is ran. I am also very thankful for the spirit, and letting us know the right from the wrong. I appreciate having experiences like these to help make my testimony even stronger.
Any experiences any of our readers have had similar to this that have helped their testimony grow?
May 14th, 2008 at 8:39 am
As a former Mormon missionary and BYU grad who converted to Catholicism, I can say that the opposite is true for people. LDS Churches feel very sterile to me. There is no imagery, kneelers for prayer, stained glass, etc. I just think its perspective. You are LDS and obviously comfortable with you faith. In the same vein, LDS Sacrament meetings were an endurance contest for me and I love the Holy Mass and am very moved by it.
As far as the gift shop, it serves a dual purpose of raising funds to support the church and provide the faithful with books and religious articles.
Not offended…we just have different perspectives.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Mark,
I do appreciate your feedback and am glad you left a comment. I know that as a former Mormon missionary you felt the spirit and you know what is right and wrong and how people really pay for books, churches etc. Making excuses for gift shops inside a church (didn’t Jesus throw all the merchants out of the temple?) is just not right or something I am willing to just accept. Tithing would be a better route to go don’t ya think?
May 14th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I’m told that LDS temples have gift shops….
May 14th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
What I still think is strange is the “renting” of temple clothing and the money exchange in the Temple itself. I have never been comfortable with this. It would be better to put the donation for laundering….etc on the tithing slip. I don’t think we are in any position to cast stones….
May 14th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
@Jeannette - Better check your source again …
@Lori - I actually agree with you on this, but at times when I have had no money I can still get what I need because there is NO PROFIT involved. No stones being cast, just sharing my testimony and where I can feel the spirit. If you are a member and can truly feel the spirit inside a church selling gifts then more power to you! You must be a better person then I am!
May 14th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Honestly, I’ve had the same feeling in a lot of buildings as well. I served down in Chile where there are a lot of very large churches of other faiths, and almost all of them had gift shops. So I have to agree with you on this one.
For example, in Chile there is a church distribution center near the temple, but it is actually outside of the temple grounds. They make sure to keep the two separate.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
The Dallas, Tx temple has a Beehive Clothing store located inside the temple. I do believe they are “for profit” and on Saturday’s they are extremely busy. As with other locations, they could have located Beehive Clothing in an adjacent bldg, but they did not. I just don’t see that much of a difference in patrons making their purchases for temple clothing and that of another religions gift shop selling their religious items.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
You write, answering Mark,
I do appreciate your feedback and am glad you left a comment. I know that as a former Mormon missionary you felt the spirit and you know what is right and wrong and how people really pay for books, churches etc. Making excuses for gift shops inside a church (didn’t Jesus throw all the merchants out of the temple?) is just not right or something I am willing to just accept.
Tithing would be a better route to go don’t ya think?
Now my reply,
As another former member of LDS, Inc. (look carefully, it is Incorporated) that is now a believing and practicing member of the Roman Catholic faith I would appreciate it if you would not comment on the practices of other faiths without first having a little knowledge.
Every church needs money to operate…power bill needs to be paid, religious education classes need to be taught with textbooks, etc. The way most Catholic parishes raise the revenue needed is by tapping into a variety of sources with the goal of covering operating expenses, while having some for future building projects (like the parish I attend in Fort Collins, CO - we did not have a social hall or a place to hold religious ed classes until an expansion was built…alot of fundraising took place). This may even include gift shops, where Catholics may, if they wish, conveniently purchase religiously themed gifts. Here in Fort Collins the only Catholic bookstore/gift shop closed a couple of years ago, and the closest one is in Denver, 60 miles south.
So, the LDS Church does not have a gift shop within churches or temples. Ok, but just outside of the LA Temple (right across the street) for many years has been an LDS bookstore so that those going to the LDS Temple can conveniently purchase LDS religiously themed gifts (oh, and btw, Beehive Clothing *is* located on the Los Angeles Temple grounds).
A Catholic parish and an LDS Church Ward have different funding mechanisms, and neither has *anything* to do with feeling, or not feeling the “Spirit”. So, why did you and your wife not feel the “Spirit” when you visited that parish in Sedona? Perhaps it could be that it is not something that is familiar to you both. Perhaps you are not aware of the rich symbolism that is so much apart of catholic church life. Whatever the reason(s) might be, it is likely a sign of sectarian prejudice that you are unwilling or unable to credit that people of other religious faiths are fully capable of being inspired every bit as much as the most devout LDS Church member. While I am no longer LDS, having spent half of my life in the LDS faith I can tell you that I continue to be inspired by the faith of the Mormon Pioneers, by LDS hymns that remain a part of my religious vocabulary…”Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel”, “Have I Done Any Good?” and my favorite, “Choose the Right”. Allow me to assure you that the catholic hymnal my parish uses has some equally inspiring hymns.
Bottomline? In order to be respectful of other people’s faiths you need to first make an effort to understand that faith as it is understood by those that practice it (and isn’t that what so many LDS members and leaders plead for from those critical of the LDS faith?). Though I never became Jewish, having studied the faith on my own for several years I have come to respect and love this ancient people and faith. Again though, this takes a little effort…if you are interested in a book or two on the Catholic faith, please drop me a line (you have my email) and I will gladly provide you some titles.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Your experience and impressions are certainly your own, and on that basis, valid, but add me to the list of those who’ll agree to disagree.
As a devout and faithful Catholic, I can assure you that the Spirit is alive and well inside Catholic churches, from the most humble sanctuaries to the grandest basilicas.
The difficulty is that it is unfamiliar territory to you, much like an LDS temple would be to someone non-LDS. You don’t speak the theological, liturgical or architectural language. You’re a stranger in a strange land. What appears to you to be commercialism is off-putting to you (the same way perhaps cafeterias in LDS temples might be to others).
Let me assure you that the heart of any Catholic place of worship, and indeed any Catholic worship service, is the Eucharist, which is something apart from your experience. It is in that Eucharist that the presence of Christ truly resides in a way only approximated in LDS belief by the Holy of Holies inside the LDS temple. Could you try to describe your experience faithfully worshipping inside LDS meetinghouses and, even more importantly, performing rituals for the living and the dead inside LDS temples, and the feeling you get therein, to the uninitiated? It would be difficult, as much as you’d want to convey those precious, treasured feelings that translate to you into truth.
That is the way it is for those of us who are faithful Catholics. What was invisible to you upon entering that church in the Arizona desert stirs the heart and soul of every Catholic who has ever experienced the great and glorious treasure from heaven that is the Eucharist. Perhaps your heart wasn’t turned inside that church. . Did you stop to pray? Invite the spirit? Seek to find common ground with those who also believe to be part of The Church of Jesus Christ?
I find being dismissive of other faiths we don’t understand is a step in our spiritual progression that leads ultimately to greater light and knowledge.
To the Catholic, the LDS meetinghouse would seem sterile, and missing the Spirit. But you can assure your Catholic friends this is not the case.
And we can assure you, with every fiber of our collective beings as part of the Body of Christ, that the Spirit is alive and well.
And yes, tithing is also a principle in Catholicism, and very much alive and well. You made a judgment about the gift shop without understanding its meaning or its purpose, which would be no more appropriate than someone making a similar judgment in times gone by when LDS wards and branches held Relief Society bake sales and bazaars as fundraisers.
The Catholic church building, whether simple chapel or grand cathedral, is to faithful Catholics the equivalent of the LDS temple–it is sacred, holy, consecrated, and the dwelling place of the Most High. Many of the same rites of initiation and ordinances that you find in your own experience, including many that occur within LDS temples, take place there. The real distinct difference is that all are welcome inside Catholic houses of worship, where entrance into a dedicated LDS temple would be restricted to those who were worthy, including paying a full tithe.
To the faithful Catholic, that would be equally offensive and off-putting as your discovery of the gift shop was to you in Sedona.
To the uninitiated stumbling into an empty LDS meetinghouse, or walking through an undedicated LDS temple, the feeling might be the same, devoid of the meaning that you would ascribe to it as a faithful member.
You can assure them they are incorrect. Allow us the same privilege. You might build a bridge of understanding that will lead to enlightenment by the same Holy Spirit that was very much there.
May God bless you in your faithfulness and keep you and your family safely in His care.–Kathy Riordan
May 15th, 2008 at 10:19 am
@Kathy and Orin
I really do appreciate all faiths, and never wanted this post to seem that I was objecting to the Catholic Church. I have many good close family and friends that are members of that faith and I know they posses good in them and have the spirit of God in them.
This being and LDS Blog, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings of what I felt and MY EXPERIENCE as well as my wifes. Its interesting to me that Catholics are reading this LDS Blog, maybe wanting to share their side of it, and I can appreciate that, but I know that Catholics do not agree with a lot of the doctrine we believe as LDS faith members, but I am not going around online looking for those blogs posting about those doctrine differences.
It is also interesting that a couple of the Catholics who left comments use to be LDS, and maybe they just can’t (or don’t want) to get fully away from their old Church, and that is why they frequent LDS Blogs?
I really did not write this post to go back and forth because I really do have respect for the Catholic faith, again since this is MY LDS BLOG, I was simply sharing my thoughts and feelings of an experience I HAD.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
@ Lori - almost missed your latest comment, but the difference is the gifts were of the local place and not gifts of faith, or readings etc. (just a normal gift shop as if I was downtown) You will not find “little Arizona Temples” for sale inside the Temple itself.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
You write,
I really do appreciate all faiths, and never wanted this post to seem that I was objecting to the Catholic Church. I have many good close family and friends that are members of that faith and I know they possess good in them and have the spirit of God in them.
This being an LDS Blog, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings of what I felt and MY EXPERIENCE as well as my wife’s. Its interesting to me that Catholics are reading this LDS Blog, maybe wanting to share their side of it, and I can appreciate that, but I know that Catholics do not agree with a lot of the doctrine we believe as LDS faith members, but I am not going around online looking for those blogs posting about those doctrine differences.
And now I reply,
If you want to take your Blog private you may do so at any time, but that your Blog is public means that YOUR words are available for everyone to read. Like I have previously indicated, I have studied the Jewish faith and one of the things I found impressive about jewish law is the finely tuned sense of human ethics. What you do when you speak ill of another faith, whether you intend to or not (and which you did in this instance) is you violate the jewish law of Lashon hara, an explanation of which casn be found here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashon_hara
and when you write of your wife’s and your own experience for what you suppose to be a nearly exclusive LDS audience, and how it left you with an “empty feeling” those are words that any Catholic would rightly be offended at, no matter your intention. Whether one feels anything, or nothing at all, these are subjective feelings…I could tell you that whenever I visit an LDS chapel with my family that I feel empty inside. Though for me I understand the reason why: it is no longer my religious home. So, when I get invited, and I go each time I am invited, I go and simply accept the fact that my wife goes because this is her religious home and she is strengthened by going.
You write,
It is also interesting that a couple of the Catholics who left comments use to be LDS, and maybe they just can’t (or don’t want) to get fully away from their old Church, and that is why they frequent LDS Blogs?
And I reply,
LOL…sorry, we have many things to do, and keeping track of everything LDS say of us Catholics is not high on the list. The person that brought it to the attention of us former LDS, now Catholics thought it a tad galling for someone selling LDS religious items to be taking exception to how Catholics fund the operations of their parishes. Frankly, now that I have to drive to Denver, I wish my parish would open a gift shop.
And no, this is not a matter of that old LDS cliché that “they can leave the LDS Church, but they cannot leave it alone”…rather this is a matter of public words deprecating the faith community of another being corrected (though I doubt you will post this reply). Except for when my wife or daughters have some LDS function, I seldom even give the LDS Church a thought in the course of a normal week in my life.
Yes, we former LDS, now Roman Catholics have an online community and keep in touch the best we can online. Some of us have made some pretty hefty sacrifices to convert to the Catholic faith. I like the LDS people, local leaders and members, and think they work very hard to make a difference in their faith community, as well as their community at large. But they know me well enough not to invite or attempt to get me to return; they respect the choice I have made, as I respect their choice as well (a big part of the reason I became Catholic, and not some flavor of evangelical Christian is because I had no desire to disturb others in their faith, and becoming Catholic allows me that option).
However, if I hear or read of the Catholic faith in a way that violates the Rotarian ethical coda then I am obligated to reply.
This is the Rotarian Code, and you would be better served to consult it in the future before placing your subjective religious feelings about the faith communities of others for *everyone* to read.
Is it the TRUTH?
Is it FAIR to all concerned?
Will it build GOODWILL and BETTER FRIENDSHIPS?
Will it be BENEFICIAL to ALL concerned?
You write,
I really did not write this post to go back and forth because I really do have respect for the Catholic faith, again since this is MY LDS BLOG, I was simply sharing my thoughts and feelings of an experience I HAD.
And this is my final reply,
IF you really do have respect for the Catholic faith then learn something about it before setting your feelings in judgment over it. For example, can you simply list the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church? That would be a good place to start.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
I’m certain everyone who’s read and responded to your blog here respects you, your blog and your point of view, even if it differs.
I imagine if you read something somewhere that someone had said about the LDS Church that you believed to be in error, whether it was in a newspaper or online, it would concern you, whether or not you responded to it. There are regular examples online of LDS members responding to blogs and discussion boards hosted by Catholics where similar feelings are expressed. If someone made fun of temple garments or something else you regarded as most sacred, it would put you on the defense.
That is simply the case here.
I know both Orin and Mark personally, and it was Mark who brought it to our attention. Both were raised in the LDS Church and extremely active, and served honorable missions, Mark to Spain I believe and Orin to Brazil. Later in both their lives they had spiritual experiences that led them to convert to Catholicism, in spite of the fact that their wives and children remained LDS (Mark’s wife and most of his children have since converted to Catholicism, but Orin continues to have an LDS wife and daughters, and continues to attend LDS Church with them on a regular basis).
I notice elsewhere on your blog that you have had a mixed marriage situation in your own family, so you can well appreciate the challenges. Orin and Mark have continued to retain an interest in things LDS primarily because most of their family was still LDS, and they were maintining two-faith homes. Obviously, it is much easier when there is only one faith in the household.
The joy you expressed at your relative’s conversion to Mormonism, his baptism into the LDS Church, is no less great than the joy I experienced the day I flew to Colorado to witness Orin’s baptism into the Catholic Church a few years ago. Catholics regard converts into their own faith with the same love and appreciation that LDS members do theirs. For every Catholic who converts to the LDS Church, there is a ward filled with happy LDS members welcoming them with open arms, and generally a Catholic family filled with sorrow that their family member has “left the church.” Just so, whenever an LDS member converts to Catholicism, there is a parish community filled with members happy to embrace the new convert into their new faith, and an LDS family left behind who feels sorrowful that their family member has “left the faith.” It is no different.
I hope if nothing else it helps you to understand why people have responded to your comments here. Many of us live in hope of bridging the communication gap between the two faiths. I am sure if you had seen someone write sn article on how they felt devoid of the spirit inside an LDS chapel, you’d have felt the desire inside, if not the inclination, to respond to it with your own point of view.
You asked for testimonies, and you got them, just not the kind you were looking for, I expect. The people who’ve responded to you here are devout, faithful, loving people, good family members, who have strong and unwavering testimonies of a loving God. May that same God continue to keep you in His loving embrace.–Kathy Riordan
May 15th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Jeannette,
LDS Temples don’t have gift shops. There are clothing distributions but the costs are just that, costs. There is not a profit being made on the clothing.
My mother taught in a Catholic private school for 5 years (we are LDS). She learned a great deal about their faith and respects what they do for their members. However, when it comes right down to it, many churches sole purpose is a business. They pay their clergy with “donations” given at the mass or whatever.
The thing I think really separates the LDS faith from other faiths in this regard is that none of our clergy are paid. They didn’t go to school to become ministers; they didn’t open up a church to make a profit. Instead, they work their 9 to 5 job and on the side they volunteer.
So, to each his own I guess.